Scarf afficianados...

Hi fashion gurus. Several years ago I did extensive photo editing for
several alt.fashion members. These were, specifically, silk scarf lovers
and wore their scarves in the photos. neck, head, etc. Using the members'
photographs, I overlaid images, created reflective images and any myriad of
other 'special effects'. I respect privacy and have no intent to disclose
the women's' names or handles, but many of you would immediately recognize
the edits! Almost all the edits were pictures from the shoulders up. (Head
shots). It was a very creative experience for my subjects and myself.
I do not take photos. I do not do sexual edits. I do not do raunchy or
distasteful edits. I do not share the finished artwork. that part is up to
you. I do not care where you live or what you do for a living. I am
completely happy to deal with handles and anonymity. My goal is to grow in
my creativity and use of PhotoShop and other graphics programs. The way we
handled it before: spouse or friend took digital pictures wearing scarf
(ves) and then the woman would decide which pictures were best. She would
send me the pics via email. I was given total free reign. (Trust is a big
factor with me.) Once finished, I would email the artwork back. Some of
the pieces found their way to websites designed by my subjects just for the
purpose of showing off the edited pictures. I felt very honored seeing my
creativity displayed for others to see.
Is there any interest?
Thanks for considering this artistic endeavor.
Michael~

hi
show us your photos?
im sure that if you do
people will offer them selves as your model
i know i might


"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8GIIf.20253$no3.4...@tornado.southeast.rr.com...

Hi Jane...
I have never needed a 'public' site to post photos and edits. I am in the
process of setting up a Yahoo Group for this explicit purpose. Most of the
photos/edits I will post there will be generic, public domain, stock photo
edits. I do not share pictures without the subject's permission and several
years ago I saw no reason to ask. (I wish I had in retrospect!)
I'll advise when the site is up–and–running. Thanks for the interest.
Michael~


"jane smith" <j...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
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"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DYQKf.31572$no3....@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
Clients pay much, much, much more than 12K for crafts, at least
from highly skilled craftsman. I'm not implying crafts are inferior to art;
they are simply different, in the way music is different from painting,
acting different from composing, pottery different from sculpture.
Glassblowers, cabinet makers, potters: no way would I ever
condescend to these folks, whose "crafts" grace my house
and my life and my vision of life.
I would be proud to be a skilled craftsperson––I am lucky enough
to know several people who are. Some brilliant. So you shouldn't,
out of what seems like your own defensiveness, give short shrift
to something that can be noble and take years or decades to master.
I was being sincere in wishing you the best. I shall wish it again
and, I swear, withdraw from this thread 4evermore. Just needed
to defend craftspeople, since it is a term not everyone understands.
An honorable term.
Blessings,
AJ

<juliann...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140629710.544813.302...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Trust me, you don't want to know.

This whole message has a strong whiff of fetishism....
Michael wrote:

....strong wiff of fetishism? As in indigenous Americans carving small
bears, birds and beavers of Turquoise? The practice of Scrimshaw?
I would hate to think that your concern is negative. Perhaps a simple
question would have allayed your fears. 'Michael, do you have a fetish for
silk scarves?' I try not to jump to conclusions... Especially in
cyber–space where there's no nuance, no body language to convey our
verbiage.
Should you ask where I am coming from, I would be more than pleased to
elaborate.
Have a great week and be well....
Michael~


<airam1002...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140489661.693687.309...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

You are all way too uptight. Perhaps you spend too much time at the perfume
sample counter? Thanks for the close–minded input. It has shown me all I
need to know about this group.
It's also good to know there are self–thinkers at alt.fashion. They are
much more self confident and not at all paranoid. Leaders will turn over a
rock before shouting 'SNAKE!!!' to the world!
Hey... someone has to follow, right? It's much safer to see evil and bad
and ugly everywhere. But remember this my fashion expert friends... The
view only changes for the lead dog. Everyone else is lookin' at dog–butt.
Please excuse me while I face some more wonderfully challenging projects.
They are only crafty things... but you know... crafts can be worthy in their
own way!
TTFN,
Michael~


"ahmward" <nospam.ahmw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TKGdnYKnFOtQUWHenZ2dnUVZ_tydn...@giganews.com...

Did you do rjudith's scaft photos?
Audrey


"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
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"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
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Carving wooden race cars is a craft. Crafts can be highly skilled
and profound, but they are not art. The examples of your
photography I've seen are not art, though some of them
displayed skill and some photographic talent. When the
primary intent of "art" is not artistic expression but instead
a brand of sexuality that would put off or frighten or disgust
the average intelligent person it isn't art; it's fetishistic. Just
as a novel or poem whose primary purpose is political
or cultural change never succeeds as art.
BTW my knowledge of Mapplethorpe is extensive.
And IMO something like, say, the bullwhip photograph has
as its central focus composition and tonal beauty. Some
people may find it disgusting, but his genius is apparent,
just as it is in his photographs of calla lilies.
Had RM knocked around usenet looking for 'bullwhip
enthusiasts' he would not have been regarded
as one of the great photographers of the second half of the
twentieth century, nor would his early death have been such
a loss to the art of photography.
I'll skip checking out the bears, thank you very much;
I'm disturbed enough by own early fondness for "Edith
and Mr Bear," having recently seen that book for the first
time since I was four years old.
I wish you the best; I just think your aesthetic bent
should be made clear to the unknowing. Because your
passion ain't for sunburned beauties wrapped up in Sangles
as they race around in an Alfa.
Now I'm going to take my cue from the ever classy
Ahmward and withdraw from this discussion.
––AJ

Hi Audrey,
I did a lot (but not all) of rj's photo edits. Any comments? :^)
Michael~


"ahmward" <nospam.ahmw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2padnVmz2JwSt2beRVn–...@giganews.com...

No, you don't have to post anything else. Your work speaks for itself.


"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MgGKf.30054$no3.24...@tornado.southeast.rr.com...

Audrey,
Is that a positive or not–so–positive critique? :^)
Michael~


"ahmward" <nospam.ahmw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UZmdnUiEvaeNpGbeRVn–...@giganews.com...

Michael, someone else brought up the word "fetish." I don't know where
art ends or fetish begins but that is my final comment on this topic.


"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
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"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
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Wow... what a two–person hornet's nest I have stirred up. I do not
understand why the word fetish is so disconcerting to the two of you... but
I will tell you this. I carve vintage racing cars out of exotic wood. I am
very good at it and I spend hours researching and measuring and carving and
finishing my commissions. I am completely engrossed in my passion for
vintage race cars... I dream about them and actually resolve logistical and
mechanical problems in my dreams. Some MIGHT consider that a fetish. I am
passionate about everything I do. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!
I am wary of anyone who says they do not judge and then jump right into a
judgmental expose.
AJ,
You know art when you see it. You know a fetish when you see it. Might I
suggest you take a look at Ainu Bears. I have an extensive collection. I
also suggest that you look at Mapplethorpe's body of work. One is a
FETISH... the other was ruled by the US courts to be ART.
I try not to be so very rigid when I 'judge' where others may be coming
from. Thanks for the input. I have learned from this brief chat.
simply,
Michael~


"AJ" <ajfash...@att.net> wrote in message
news:xZKKf.48690$id5.3...@bgtnsc04–news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

The non–judgmental AJ wrote... "Carving wooden race cars is a craft. Crafts
can be highly skilled and profound, but they are not art." Could one be
MORE arrogant?
Clients do not pay upwards of $12,000.00/per, for craft, my dear. :^)
Condescension does not make anyone look good. Mayhaps you wear blinders for
some deep seeded reason that I do not and cannot comprehend. Your opinion is
just that. Your definitions are very limited. I will not join you in
debate as I see a distinct possibility of the old 'Teach a pig to sing'
scenario. You, obviously, have not seen my work (sculptures OR edits)... I
stated (VERY CLEARLY) that all the published edits were not mine, but you
seem to have a need to 'conclude'. Not very fair, wouldn't you agree?
Methinks you may need to lighten up JUST a bit. Certainly not an edict...
just an observation from an old, incredibly passionate, creative, and very
happy person.
*hugs*
Michael~
You said it all when you


"AJ" <ajfash...@att.net> wrote in message
news:aBQKf.441323$qk4.338...@bgtnsc05–news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

AJ,
I am responding to cyberspace since this was your FINAL, final withdrawal
from this thread. Please note that I could not live in your narrowly
defined world. I have no need to define another's work... I am an artist...
I know it and my clients know it. I also know exactly what I proposed in my
original post and, not so surprisingly, so did several open minded women who
'got it'. They are all interested in having family–friendly fantasy
pictures to enjoy with spouses and children and friends. I have made them
aware of your concern and have suggested they contact you directly when this
FETISH thing becomes obvious and gets out of hand! You can revel in "I told
you so's" to your heart's content. On the other hand... in the real
world... there are going to be a bunch of very nice fashion/fantasy pictures
created because everyone is not so cynical. (thanks to the gods.)
I wonder if you would define the edits as craft or art? Actually... it's a
rhetorical question because, in the overall scheme of things, it does not
matter how you (or I) define it!
I have to admit I was crushed to learn that Dale Chihuly is not an artist.
I think I'll ask for my money back!
Backatcha with the best of luck stuff. Be well. Live with passion. Try
to do something every day that scares the hell out of you!
Michael~


"AJ" <ajfash...@att.net> wrote in message
news:ZLSKf.50686$id5.40...@bgtnsc04–news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Michael wrote:

"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wf0Lf.17259$915.3...@southeast.rr.com...
Never say never, that's my motto. Actually one of my passions,
lol. One of my closest friends has studied with Dale Chiluly twice
and, just so you know, and your children and your children's children
after you know, he proudly calls himself a craftsman. And no one
has an ego like Chihuly.
Quit dropping names when your arguments fall flat and try to
understand, try please! to understand, that words have
specific meanings, even if our culture at large doesn't
recognize them. No one's the "architect" of a political
campaign. Corruption in a presidential administration
is not a "cancer." A hurricane doesn't "rape." My
LeCorbusier and Eames chairs, which I cherish and think
impossibly beautiful aren't art (neither, by the bye, is my
piece of Chihuly glass). Whether or not the original drawings
on my Hermes scarves are art or not is actually something
I'm not clear on; however the incredibly intricate silkscreening
process that reproduces them isn't art.
Just because something is beautiful or complex or
impossible to master for most mortals doesn't make it art.
Editing, whether in photographs or writing, is neither art
nor craft. It's a skill. Even when an artist or writer is doing it.
All I'm saying is that language matters and words have
meanings. Maybe you think when I say craft I mean
some kind of Michael's decoupage or grape wreath vine
b.s. I don't. I'm thinking instead of brilliant craftsmen
and women I'm lucky enough to know and how their
creations enlarge my life.
Hope I've answered you questions. Thanks for the advice.
May I give you some? Get passionate about a dictionary.
It's fascinating, really, to see what words really mean.
––AJ, who just couldn't keep that scarf over her mouth
and shut up

"Michael" <meveri...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hy5Lf.17297$915.4...@southeast.rr.com...
..[snip]
That's all I was trying to say! Sorry for the previous post;
it's clear now you get it!
––AJ

"AJ" <ajfash...@att.net> wrote in message
news:cU5Lf.55061$id5.7...@bgtnsc04–news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
It also takes an "eye" for composition and error and a talent for
repairing mistakes. So, while there is mainly skill, there ~is~ an
element of both art and craft. At least in prose editing, I cannot
speak for graphics.

Random House~Webster's...
Fetish: n: 1. An object regarded as having magical power; Talisman. 2.
Something eliciting unquestioning reverence and devotion. 3. An object
used for achieving sexual excitement or fulfillment.
I try to go with the first definition when I use words. I don't 'make them
fit' my needs.
To infer that I am uneducated is a bit rude. I own several dictionaries...
complete, abridged and rhyming (I am a songwriter also) just another craft?
I spoke to Mr. Chihuly when he exhibited here and he certainly considers
himself an artist. Perhaps a craftsman and an artist... but not in that
order. Could be that huge ego?
As for name dropping... you wrote... "My LeCorbusier and Eames chairs" and
"my Hermes scarves"... Naughty girl!!!
I really cannot understand the need to judge and control. I'm probably much
older than you and would offer this advice... control is an illusion at
best. It (like anger) will eat you alive. Your definition of Art is
terribly finite. Perhaps something here will allow you to see beyond the
rigid parameters of your world...
"Art is anything that people add to their 'output' which is not functionally
necessary and is other than the default properties of that output."
Example: The default leg of a chair (output) may be a long rectangular
square. If its maker tapers the ends for no other reason than personal
aesthetic preference, that tapering is art.
This is definitely NOT your definition... but it is A definition.
You (nor I) get to make the rules. We can only define our own lives. Be
careful which doors you open, close and lock... sometimes you can't undo a
door's status...
I find two references in your response extremely intriguing... One is the
reference to grape wreath vines... do you speak of a particular that I had
no hand in editing? The other to your scarf covered mouth... totally
unsolicited... one might wonder who is the fetishist here!
If you would like to continue this debate, I might suggest being just a bit
less condescending. I am not so far down the food chain as you might
think.... Neither do I desire waste valuable time arguing tastes, likes and
dislikes. There are very few things in this world that are so black and
white as any of us might wish. God... in her infinite wisdom... left an
awful lot up to us.
Again... be well. Live with passion. Lose the judgmental needs... they
distract from your soul.
just Michael~


"AJ" <ajfash...@att.net> wrote in message
news:cU5Lf.55061$id5.7...@bgtnsc04–news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

i Jane,
What a can of worms I opened, huh? It was not my intent. I was not so put
off by the fetish discussion as I was the rigid definition of art/craft. I
find it very interesting that the very person referencing fetish needed to
make a specific comment about her 'scarf covered mouth'. :^)
I think (for several reasons) that this photo is about fetish. The first
and most determinate is that the picture was done specifically for the
fetish magazine. I am not a fan of gags either... It implies control. (to
me).
Remember, this is my opinion. I do not pretend to decide for others. I do
know that I stopped presenting my scarf stories and my scarved photos on
sites that were mostly about BDSM and SM. I am not interested in those
lifestyles..........
On to the second picture... see you down there! :^)
Michael~


"jane smith" <j...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dttft1$ng...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs–infra.bt.com...

Hello again... :^)
This picture is (at this point ) not fetish related. If the pretty person
wears the scarf around her neck, or ties it on her head (Grace Kelly
style).. no, it is not (necessarily) a fetish. I cannot read minds... She
may have all sorts of devious 'scarfy' things on her mind. On the other
hand, she could be interested in teasing, titillating, silky, sensual
stirring of at least four senses! Until I know otherwise, I'll go with the
latter... There are (at last count) 2,341,654 things to do with scarves.
:^)
Michael~


"jane smith" <j...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
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