Home / alt.fashion / Thursday, January 13, 2005
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
very interesting.
Jamie
Hard to label
Adrav <nos...@nospam.com>
1/13/2005 2:18:36 AM
That size 8 dress may be a 6 or even a 4 at other stores. When it comes to
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
"N Cognito" <write...@hotmail.com>
1/13/2005 8:13:39 AM
According to a report on the garment industry, fabric is piled high on
a table and cut by a laser. This laser must be perfectly perpendicular
to the table for a precise cut. This is not always possible. By the
time the laser penetrates the bottom layer of fabric, the cut has been
slightly skewed. This accounts for some of the size differences
between identical garments of the same size.
Andrea
eBay: activeenterprises
a table and cut by a laser. This laser must be perfectly perpendicular
to the table for a precise cut. This is not always possible. By the
time the laser penetrates the bottom layer of fabric, the cut has been
slightly skewed. This accounts for some of the size differences
between identical garments of the same size.
Andrea
eBay: activeenterprises
"Jamie" <zuschlag–sequ...@tds.net>
1/12/2005 9:31:03 PM
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
That size 8 dress may be a 6 or even a 4 at other stores. When it comes to
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
I don't think this comes as a surprise to anyone here. I find the article women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
very interesting.
Jamie
"N Cognito" <write...@hotmail.com>
1/12/2005 6:34:14 PM
The funny thing about vanity sizing is bras run smaller today. I am
convinced a 34D is the same as a 34C ten years ago.
Andrea
eBay: activeenterprises
convinced a 34D is the same as a 34C ten years ago.
Andrea
eBay: activeenterprises
"Miss Livvy" <Xeveryidiwantistak...@yahoo.com>
1/13/2005 6:32:11 AM
Can the sizing be different for the same garment at 2 different stores? Over
the weekend I tried on a skirt made by French Connection in a size 2 at
Bloomingdales and it was big in the waist by 1–2 inches. So I went to the
French Connection boutique to try it on, and the 2 fit me just fine. I told
the SA what happened, and he mumbled something about "the sizes at
Bloomindale's could be different" or something I did not quite catch. I was
thinking it was just a labeling error, but ... ?
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
the weekend I tried on a skirt made by French Connection in a size 2 at
Bloomingdales and it was big in the waist by 1–2 inches. So I went to the
French Connection boutique to try it on, and the 2 fit me just fine. I told
the SA what happened, and he mumbled something about "the sizes at
Bloomindale's could be different" or something I did not quite catch. I was
thinking it was just a labeling error, but ... ?
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
That size 8 dress may be a 6 or even a 4 at other stores. When it comes to
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shaped up a bit. Now a medium at another store might
be as big as a small here.
Everything's at 6s and 7s
Target isn't satisfied just catering to the even numbered among us. For
example, its Mossimo women's line starts at size 1 and runs up the
odd–numbered slope. Other lines they carry use the evens, so you can find
every number from 1 to 14. The plus size section continues the run up to
24. But actually finding a 1, 2 or 3 will prove difficult. The most
popular sizes at the store on La Cienega are 6 through 8 and 12 through
14, according to staffer Linda Clark. The small numbers just don't get
much play.
4 = 8
At the other end of the Wonderland spectrum, try a boutique. M. Fredric at
the Grove carries lines of contemporary clothing that run from 0 to 10,
but the sizes run so small that a 0 elsewhere will be a 4 at this store,
and a 12 elsewhere better just keep it moving, there's nothing to see
here.
1, 2, 3, 4
Make sense? Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to
baby boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system.
So a size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." And in another act of
sartorial rebellion, Chico's doesn't carry anything smaller than a 4, er,
a 0.
38 = 4 = 2
At Barneys New York, the sizes aren't made up, they're imported. Its
Piazza Sempione department features Italian sizing that runs in even
numbers from 36 to 48. A 36 translates to 2, 48 to 14. But the sizes run
small, so throw that out the window and do your best.
You can also find English sizes, which run 8, 10, 12 and 14. In American,
that's small, medium, large and extra–large. There's also French sizing,
mon Dieu. (The Ron Herman women's department at Fred Segal also carries
the European Tower of Babel sizes.)
As a staffer said, middle America may be larger, but designers run
smaller.
Given the oblique math involved, if you're buying clothes for someone
else, gift cards might be the way to go one size fits all.
Lil...@webtv.net (Lily)
1/13/2005 12:39:04 PM
<<Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to baby
boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system. So a
size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." >>
In other words, women are too vain––or stupid––to realize that sizes 1,
2, and 3 = Small, Medium and Large?
Lily
boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system. So a
size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." >>
In other words, women are too vain––or stupid––to realize that sizes 1,
2, and 3 = Small, Medium and Large?
Lily
ami kio <...@cant–take–anymore–spam.com>
1/13/2005 8:43:12 PM
On 1/13/05 11:39 AM, in article
10840–41E6B238–...@storefull–3331.bay.webtv.net, "Lily" <Lil...@webtv.net>
wrote:
only carry down to S. I've noticed that many men's lines start at M.
I used to scorn women who fell for vanity sizing; however, an experience in
Asia proved to me that even normally logical women (read: me, as defined by
myself and my friends) are susceptible to the power of "my size is number
X". I'm normally an XS/0–2 in the US, but when I went to Asia, I discovered
that I was a M–XL! It took several trips to the dressing room for me to
accept this fact, and I was a bit bothered for a day or two until I accepted
this. It was a humbling experience though. :)
So now my only gripes with vanity sizing are (a) it isn't consistent across
the board and (b) vanity sizing is pushing my size off the end! Obviously,
gripe (b) is a huge concern for me.
ami
10840–41E6B238–...@storefull–3331.bay.webtv.net, "Lily" <Lil...@webtv.net>
wrote:
<<Chico's, the nationwide women's clothing chain that caters to baby
boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system. So a
size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." >>
In other words, women are too vain––or stupid––to realize that sizes 1,
2, and 3 = Small, Medium and Large?
Lily
Men are subject to vanity sizing too. BR used to carry XS, but now they boomers, has thrown out all known sizes and made up its own system. So a
size 3 Chico skirt would be a size 14 or 16 elsewhere. The management
makes no bones about changing the size to suit its clientele.
"It makes you feel better," said Carole Dailey, manager of the Grove
store. "If I'm a size 0, psychologically it feels good. It's not about
what size it is anyway, it's about how it fits." >>
In other words, women are too vain––or stupid––to realize that sizes 1,
2, and 3 = Small, Medium and Large?
Lily
only carry down to S. I've noticed that many men's lines start at M.
I used to scorn women who fell for vanity sizing; however, an experience in
Asia proved to me that even normally logical women (read: me, as defined by
myself and my friends) are susceptible to the power of "my size is number
X". I'm normally an XS/0–2 in the US, but when I went to Asia, I discovered
that I was a M–XL! It took several trips to the dressing room for me to
accept this fact, and I was a bit bothered for a day or two until I accepted
this. It was a humbling experience though. :)
So now my only gripes with vanity sizing are (a) it isn't consistent across
the board and (b) vanity sizing is pushing my size off the end! Obviously,
gripe (b) is a huge concern for me.
ami
"Claire in SF" <clairi...@aol.com>
1/13/2005 9:55:24 AM
orry to top post to this very interesting article. I'm glad to see this
getting additional coverage in the popular press more.
I have been in a number of apparel shopping experiences or just size
discussions in which Gap sizing (new Gap sizing, lol) has been used as a
benchmark at non–Gap, Inc. stores. For example, people comparing sizing and
saying, "I am an 8 at Gap". At a recent shopping experience at Sanrio I was
looking at the pnaties and deciding which size to get and the SA told me
which size pnaty she got and what her Gap size was, so I could use that as a
guide for which pnaty size to buy. Not that Gap sizing is standard any
longer, but Gap stores are ubiquitous and so many people shop there that it
becomes a commonality among us. Funny!
I am probably one of the few who doesn't like vanity sizing and who sees a
lot of downsides to it.
The article is right in the thin petite woman will have to shop in the girls
dept in some stores, or not shop there. A couple weeks ago I was trying on
something in the dressing room at ON when a normally thin, small–framed,
woman about 5'4" and obviously in her late 20's asked if the pants she tried
on in a girls 12 were availabe in a girls 14.
The article is correct about the "X – 1" and "X – 2" concept, however in
some stores it is even X – 3 (that means old size minus three sizes gives
you your new size). I can show you a size 8 from fall 2003 and at the same
store (that produces its own apparel) a year later it is equivalent to a
size 4 or 2 or even a 0 in one case at the store depending upon the pant. No
kidding.
But strangely, at the same store, one may have to buy at the small end in
terms of pants and even tops, but then every so often there will be a top
style in which you have to go back up to your "old skool size"!
I would think that vanity sizing would result in more returns from online
purchases because of even more uncertaintly than ever in which size to get.
I have even seen a couple stores that vanity size but then in their online
sizing charts they use old skool measurements for the sizes, so you can't go
by the sizing charts.
I think it could result in higher return rates for apparel purchased as
gifts. How can your family members, husbands, boyfriends, etc. buy apparel
for you unless they have a good sense of your physical size and estimate by
looking at the article of clothing? I am good at that but I know many
husbands and boyfriends who aren't :) They would have to know you size at
various stores. They can no longer venture into any store and just say to
the SA, "she's a 10". The SA would have to ask whether that was a bebe size
or a Gap size, lol. Sure, there hasn't been pervasive size standardization
for a long time but now it's just a joke.
Has there always been a size 1 when a line uses even sizes? It's funny that
a pant will come in 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 1, 0. Did they have to stick a 1 into
the even sizes to squeeze more smaller sizes into the sizing system?
Claire
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
getting additional coverage in the popular press more.
I have been in a number of apparel shopping experiences or just size
discussions in which Gap sizing (new Gap sizing, lol) has been used as a
benchmark at non–Gap, Inc. stores. For example, people comparing sizing and
saying, "I am an 8 at Gap". At a recent shopping experience at Sanrio I was
looking at the pnaties and deciding which size to get and the SA told me
which size pnaty she got and what her Gap size was, so I could use that as a
guide for which pnaty size to buy. Not that Gap sizing is standard any
longer, but Gap stores are ubiquitous and so many people shop there that it
becomes a commonality among us. Funny!
I am probably one of the few who doesn't like vanity sizing and who sees a
lot of downsides to it.
The article is right in the thin petite woman will have to shop in the girls
dept in some stores, or not shop there. A couple weeks ago I was trying on
something in the dressing room at ON when a normally thin, small–framed,
woman about 5'4" and obviously in her late 20's asked if the pants she tried
on in a girls 12 were availabe in a girls 14.
The article is correct about the "X – 1" and "X – 2" concept, however in
some stores it is even X – 3 (that means old size minus three sizes gives
you your new size). I can show you a size 8 from fall 2003 and at the same
store (that produces its own apparel) a year later it is equivalent to a
size 4 or 2 or even a 0 in one case at the store depending upon the pant. No
kidding.
But strangely, at the same store, one may have to buy at the small end in
terms of pants and even tops, but then every so often there will be a top
style in which you have to go back up to your "old skool size"!
I would think that vanity sizing would result in more returns from online
purchases because of even more uncertaintly than ever in which size to get.
I have even seen a couple stores that vanity size but then in their online
sizing charts they use old skool measurements for the sizes, so you can't go
by the sizing charts.
I think it could result in higher return rates for apparel purchased as
gifts. How can your family members, husbands, boyfriends, etc. buy apparel
for you unless they have a good sense of your physical size and estimate by
looking at the article of clothing? I am good at that but I know many
husbands and boyfriends who aren't :) They would have to know you size at
various stores. They can no longer venture into any store and just say to
the SA, "she's a 10". The SA would have to ask whether that was a bebe size
or a Gap size, lol. Sure, there hasn't been pervasive size standardization
for a long time but now it's just a joke.
Has there always been a size 1 when a line uses even sizes? It's funny that
a pant will come in 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 1, 0. Did they have to stick a 1 into
the even sizes to squeeze more smaller sizes into the sizing system?
Claire
"Adrav" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cs4lpr$e9...@reader2.panix.com...
That size 8 dress may be a 6 or even a 4 at other stores. When it comes to
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shap
women's clothing, sizes are in the eye of the retailer.
Los Angeles Times
January 12, 2004
By Lisa Rosen
Special to The Times
Jan 12 2005
When is a size not a size? When it pertains to women's clothing.
This is not a Zen koan, but a fact of life in today's retail world. Women,
you may have noticed while shopping that at some point, you went from your
regular size to the next size down, without actually losing any weight.
This is called vanity sizing, and it has gained popularity among women's
clothing manufacturers because women apparently prefer to buy clothing in
small sizes, even if those sizes don't actually reflect reality.
Personally, I have no problem with this. In fact, my new plan is to
proceed from a size 6 (formerly 8) to a size 4 while eating a crme brle.
But all vanity is not equal.
Women's clothing sizes vary depending on where you shop. A medium at one
place could be a small at the store next door, while across the mall
you'll manage to fit the extra small. (Lest men feel any "vanity size thy
name is woman" superiority, parse this a fellow who wears a size large
shirt anywhere else fits only the XXL size at Abercrombie & Fitch,
according to a male staffer there. Apparently, men like to think they're
bigger than they really are, go figure.)
Further, vanity sizing hasn't happened across the board. While most of the
larger retailers are all for it, your higher–end boutiques in Los Angeles
have long gone the opposite route. Not only do they refuse to vanity size,
their designers go with European sizing Italian, French, English and on
top of that, their sizes tend to run small. Let's call it humility sizing.
And many boutiques don't even carry larger sizes at all, even though the
average American woman is now a size 14, according to a recent survey by
the Textile/Clothing Technology Corp., a textile and apparel research firm
based in Cary, N.C., where it's no sin to be amply proportioned.
Then there are sizes that capture the imagination. Size 0 has been around
for years, but Abercrombie started sporting 00 in 1996. When asked what
double zero means, exactly, a sales clerk replied that she had no idea.
(Most staffers at the various stores wished to remain anonymous.) When
further asked where does one go from there, the answer was "the kid's
department."
Like Alice in Wonderland, shrinking and growing beyond her control,
women's clothing inhabits a world with no absolutes. Lourdes Lozano, sales
manager for a women's line called Brasil Sul, said that depending on where
you shop, "you want an active–wear pant in a medium, you get either a tent
or a thong." Lozano, who has worked in practically every area of women's
clothing, added, "It's so frustrating. I'm in the business 25 years and I
don't know what size I am."
The math here is enough to make E=mc2 look like child's play. Consider the
following equations found while shopping at some chain and discount stores
and local boutiques:
2 = 4
Abercrombie & Fitch not only features the 00, but a woman who is a size 2
at, say, the Gap, is a size 4 here. (Bebe runs similarly small.) Then
again, that could be reversed to 4=2, if you preferred to use the Gap as
your base measurement. So, does that mean the Gap runs big or A&F runs
small? This isn't a proper scientific study with a control group; the mice
refused to try on the sweater sets. Let's move on to something easier.
X = X + 1 1/2
J. Crew used to have a reputation for super–vanity sizing. A medium
anywhere else could be a cozy extra–small here. But after a revamping last
fall, the sizes have shap