Home / alt.fashion / Friday, July 18, 2003
not interchangeable. The notion that Jews control international finance fed
the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive. As far as black guys teaching white guys the finer points of
basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent. As far as
Hispanic guys teaching Anglo guys to dance––that's not a stereotype I was aware
of, so I don't know how to categorize it.
Also, have you watched the show? It's a style show but also a comedy program,
which gives it a little more latitude.
not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable being called Jewish
princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage. NBC would get hit over the
head on that one.
You know there is a series on Showtime about gay men called Queer is Folk.
It's adapted from a British production. Does that usage distress you?
Re: Queer Eye for the Straight Guy
ManualIns...@DB.com
7/18/2003 7:16:20 PM
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/18/2003 8:16:20 PM
Greg said:
stereotypes that they contain a not–insignificant amount of truth.
The fact that stereotypes are embraced and turned into a positive is not, IMCO,
particularly helpful, because all it does is dull the sense of the individual,
and lump people into a homgeneous glob, only now we think highly (or, at bare
minimum, "less worse") of said homogeneous glob.
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
I realize that a show about a straight guy teaching another straight guy how to
dress better, even if the show was bright, funny, creative, etc., would be a
ratings snooze.
But I still don't like it.
[Flame suit on.]
–Joe in SoFla
"They're such beautiful shirts. It makes me sad because I've never seen such –
such beautiful shirts before." Daisy Buchanan in F. Scott Fitzgerald's _The
Great Gatsby_ (or Trilby, at 29 Newbury...I forget)
The only stereotype that is portrayed negatively is that of the
hapless straight man who can't shave himself, dress himself, or do
anything nice for his significant other (if he is lucky enough to have
one). As a straight man, I don't find this an offensive portrayal of
straight men. I think it is sadly all too common.
Well, that stereotype bothers/ed me. I don't like the excuse made for hapless straight man who can't shave himself, dress himself, or do
anything nice for his significant other (if he is lucky enough to have
one). As a straight man, I don't find this an offensive portrayal of
straight men. I think it is sadly all too common.
stereotypes that they contain a not–insignificant amount of truth.
The fact that stereotypes are embraced and turned into a positive is not, IMCO,
particularly helpful, because all it does is dull the sense of the individual,
and lump people into a homgeneous glob, only now we think highly (or, at bare
minimum, "less worse") of said homogeneous glob.
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
I realize that a show about a straight guy teaching another straight guy how to
dress better, even if the show was bright, funny, creative, etc., would be a
ratings snooze.
But I still don't like it.
[Flame suit on.]
–Joe in SoFla
"They're such beautiful shirts. It makes me sad because I've never seen such –
such beautiful shirts before." Daisy Buchanan in F. Scott Fitzgerald's _The
Great Gatsby_ (or Trilby, at 29 Newbury...I forget)
maladic...@aol.com (Maladicta1)
7/18/2003 8:30:55 PM
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic
guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
Each of the stereotypes you cite has a particular historical context. They're black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic
guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
not interchangeable. The notion that Jews control international finance fed
the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive. As far as black guys teaching white guys the finer points of
basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent. As far as
Hispanic guys teaching Anglo guys to dance––that's not a stereotype I was aware
of, so I don't know how to categorize it.
Also, have you watched the show? It's a style show but also a comedy program,
which gives it a little more latitude.
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/18/2003 9:04:51 PM
Mal said:
2– Agreed, but I wasn't addressing the interchangeability, I was addressing the
noxiousness, to my mind, of all stereotypes
that it was the purported financial acumen of the Jews that proved the germ
that spawned the Holocaust. Leaving that aside, it's bothersome to me, because
it's a stereotype, independent of the sources of the stereotype and the
peripheral factors associated therewith.
ones" are bad, always and everywhere.
a great deal of difficulty getting past. To it's annoying to have a show about
a person belonging to Group A teaching a person not from Group A, some sort of
skill stereotypically associated with Group A. It doesn't matter to me what
Group A is, or what is that skill they are widely thought to possess in
near–monopoly levels.
–Joe in SoFla
"They're such beautiful shirts. It makes me sad because I've never seen such –
such beautiful shirts before." Daisy Buchanan in F. Scott Fitzgerald's _The
Great Gatsby_ (or Trilby, at 29 Newbury...I forget)
Each of the stereotypes you cite has a particular historical context. They're
not interchangeable.
1– Agreed not interchangeable.
2– Agreed, but I wasn't addressing the interchangeability, I was addressing the
noxiousness, to my mind, of all stereotypes
The notion that Jews control international finance fed
the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive.
I don't believe (I cannot be categorically certain––a rarity for me––of this) the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive.
that it was the purported financial acumen of the Jews that proved the germ
that spawned the Holocaust. Leaving that aside, it's bothersome to me, because
it's a stereotype, independent of the sources of the stereotype and the
peripheral factors associated therewith.
As far as black guys teaching white guys the finer points of
basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent. As far as
Hispanic guys teaching Anglo guys to dance––that's not a stereotype I was
aware
of, so I don't know how to categorize it.
I'll freely admit to being of a binary mind on this, stereotypes (even "good basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent. As far as
Hispanic guys teaching Anglo guys to dance––that's not a stereotype I was
aware
of, so I don't know how to categorize it.
ones" are bad, always and everywhere.
Also, have you watched the show? It's a style show but also a comedy program,
which gives it a little more latitude.
I grant you all that, but the fact it plays on stereotypes is something I have which gives it a little more latitude.
a great deal of difficulty getting past. To it's annoying to have a show about
a person belonging to Group A teaching a person not from Group A, some sort of
skill stereotypically associated with Group A. It doesn't matter to me what
Group A is, or what is that skill they are widely thought to possess in
near–monopoly levels.
–Joe in SoFla
"They're such beautiful shirts. It makes me sad because I've never seen such –
such beautiful shirts before." Daisy Buchanan in F. Scott Fitzgerald's _The
Great Gatsby_ (or Trilby, at 29 Newbury...I forget)
g...@tucker–kellogg.com (Greg Tucker–Kellogg)
7/21/2003 8:27:41 AM
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.) wrote in message news:<20030718170451.21580.00000...@mb–m07.aol.com>...
[snip]
contributes to the touchiness of this issue, but also powers the show.
Each of us carries a sense of our own identity around with us all the
time, with no chance for escape or respite. Stereotypes contribute
negatively to our experience of others, to our sense of self and, I
think, to our personal freedom; transformed into a sense of identity
they can do some good.
Are the Fab Five portrayed as free individuals each with a sense of
identity, or as stereotypical characters? I think a little of each,
but the direction of the show moves firmly FROM the stereotype TO the
individuals for both the Fab Five and the subject. That's part of
what makes it entertaining as well as gay–positive.
Greg
[snip]
I'll freely admit to being of a binary mind on this, stereotypes (even "good
ones" are bad, always and everywhere.
IMO, there is a gray area between "stereotype" and "identity" that ones" are bad, always and everywhere.
contributes to the touchiness of this issue, but also powers the show.
Each of us carries a sense of our own identity around with us all the
time, with no chance for escape or respite. Stereotypes contribute
negatively to our experience of others, to our sense of self and, I
think, to our personal freedom; transformed into a sense of identity
they can do some good.
Are the Fab Five portrayed as free individuals each with a sense of
identity, or as stereotypical characters? I think a little of each,
but the direction of the show moves firmly FROM the stereotype TO the
individuals for both the Fab Five and the subject. That's part of
what makes it entertaining as well as gay–positive.
Greg
vamp...@aol.com (Vampkel)
7/21/2003 5:41:43 PM
is this show on tonite??
––kel
"A new dress doesn't get you anywhere; its the life you're living in the
dress."
––Diana Vreeland
––kel
"A new dress doesn't get you anywhere; its the life you're living in the
dress."
––Diana Vreeland
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/21/2003 5:43:10 PM
Greg said:
show's creators count on, is powered by stereotyping.
it does, but never mind). It STILL doesn't address the corrosive nature of
stereotypes. It would then just be "stereotypes, only better!"
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
IMO, there is a gray area between "stereotype" and "identity" that
contributes to the touchiness of this issue, but also powers the show.
Each of us carries a sense of our own identity around with us all the
time, with no chance for escape or respite. Stereotypes contribute
negatively to our experience of others, to our sense of self and, I
think, to our personal freedom; transformed into a sense of identity
they can do some good.
I disagree. I believe the momentum of the show, or better yet the momentum the contributes to the touchiness of this issue, but also powers the show.
Each of us carries a sense of our own identity around with us all the
time, with no chance for escape or respite. Stereotypes contribute
negatively to our experience of others, to our sense of self and, I
think, to our personal freedom; transformed into a sense of identity
they can do some good.
show's creators count on, is powered by stereotyping.
Are the Fab Five portrayed as free individuals each with a sense of
identity, or as stereotypical characters? I think a little of each,
but the direction of the show moves firmly FROM the stereotype TO the
individuals for both the Fab Five and the subject. That's part of
what makes it entertaining as well as gay–positive.
Let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that it does that (I'm not so sure identity, or as stereotypical characters? I think a little of each,
but the direction of the show moves firmly FROM the stereotype TO the
individuals for both the Fab Five and the subject. That's part of
what makes it entertaining as well as gay–positive.
it does, but never mind). It STILL doesn't address the corrosive nature of
stereotypes. It would then just be "stereotypes, only better!"
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com>
7/21/2003 6:02:31 PM
FWIW, The lovely and talented Mrs. Userb3 and I watched QEFSG last night.
While I found the show entertaining, I wonder how long it will take for
the novelty to wear off. I hope they eventually tone down the camp and
focus on the fashion. I liked the "Hip Tips" at the end of the show, and
was suitably impressed at the good natured rapport the "Fab 5" developed
with their "victim."
And, of course, they did an excellent job with wardrobe, hair,
decorating, etc.
I do wonder, however, if they aren't being overly ambitious. I love to
watch "What Not To Wear", and one of the things I like about it is that
they focus on a couple of basic fashion principles each week. You can
learn a lot about what looks good on different body types from watching
Trinny and Susannah work. QEFSG runs thropugh so many different concepts
in one hour – wardrobe, decorating, grooming, cooking, even social
skills, that its hard to absorb it all.
And finally, the title still bothers me. I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
While I found the show entertaining, I wonder how long it will take for
the novelty to wear off. I hope they eventually tone down the camp and
focus on the fashion. I liked the "Hip Tips" at the end of the show, and
was suitably impressed at the good natured rapport the "Fab 5" developed
with their "victim."
And, of course, they did an excellent job with wardrobe, hair,
decorating, etc.
I do wonder, however, if they aren't being overly ambitious. I love to
watch "What Not To Wear", and one of the things I like about it is that
they focus on a couple of basic fashion principles each week. You can
learn a lot about what looks good on different body types from watching
Trinny and Susannah work. QEFSG runs thropugh so many different concepts
in one hour – wardrobe, decorating, grooming, cooking, even social
skills, that its hard to absorb it all.
And finally, the title still bothers me. I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
maladic...@aol.com (Maladicta1)
7/21/2003 6:39:48 PM
I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
Who's tune in to watch it if it was called "The Fab 5?" Your other example is Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable being called Jewish
princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage. NBC would get hit over the
head on that one.
You know there is a series on Showtime about gay men called Queer is Folk.
It's adapted from a British production. Does that usage distress you?
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com>
7/21/2003 7:10:51 PM
maladic...@aol.com (Maladicta1) wrote in
news:20030721143948.02452.00000...@mb–m21.aol.com:
I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
What Not To Wear, Trading Spaces, the Food network, etc.
we know, many Asians are bothered by the stereotype that they are
inherently good at math. I wish I had a nickle for every time someone
suggested that I'm successful in business because my "people are good
with money" (I'm Jewish).
I'm not so naive as to suggest I think stereotypes can be done away with
completely. Obviously, we all have experience with various types of
people, and we tend to generalize based on our experience. And many
stereotypes contain a grain of truth.
But stereotypes are also used to avoid dealing with people as
individuals, to more easily dismiss entire groups of people, and often to
the detriment of both individual and society.
So while I recognize that stereotypes exist, I am opposed to their
wholesale use and endorsement. In my humble opinion, QEFSG is a wholesale
exploitation and endorsement of two demeaning stereotypes. It bothers me.
Queer *as* Folk). I simply assume it is a drama about gay characters. I'm
interested in the series, but I don't get Showtime.
The word "queer" is a whole 'nother conversation. The short version is
that the word bothered me for years. This isn't the place for extensive
personal revalation, but suffice it to say that I relate to the term on a
personal level, and far prefer the terms gay, lesbian, bi, etc. I
personally don't buy into the notion that by using the same terms people
use to insult you, you disarm them.
That said, as the word now seems to be in universal use by gay
organizations, I admit that I am outnumbered, and do my best not to take
offense at the term. But its not a term that comes naturally to me. It
still sounds insulting.
news:20030721143948.02452.00000...@mb–m21.aol.com:
I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
Who's tune in to watch it if it was called "The Fab 5?"
If promoted properly, a cross section of the people who currently watch What Not To Wear, Trading Spaces, the Food network, etc.
Your other
example is not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable
being called Jewish princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage.
NBC would get hit over the head on that one.
Seething anger isn't the criteria I use to be bothered by stereotypes. As example is not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable
being called Jewish princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage.
NBC would get hit over the head on that one.
we know, many Asians are bothered by the stereotype that they are
inherently good at math. I wish I had a nickle for every time someone
suggested that I'm successful in business because my "people are good
with money" (I'm Jewish).
I'm not so naive as to suggest I think stereotypes can be done away with
completely. Obviously, we all have experience with various types of
people, and we tend to generalize based on our experience. And many
stereotypes contain a grain of truth.
But stereotypes are also used to avoid dealing with people as
individuals, to more easily dismiss entire groups of people, and often to
the detriment of both individual and society.
So while I recognize that stereotypes exist, I am opposed to their
wholesale use and endorsement. In my humble opinion, QEFSG is a wholesale
exploitation and endorsement of two demeaning stereotypes. It bothers me.
You know there is a series on Showtime about gay men called Queer is
Folk. It's adapted from a British production. Does that usage distress
you?
I don't see the same use of stereotype in the title (which I thought was Folk. It's adapted from a British production. Does that usage distress
you?
Queer *as* Folk). I simply assume it is a drama about gay characters. I'm
interested in the series, but I don't get Showtime.
The word "queer" is a whole 'nother conversation. The short version is
that the word bothered me for years. This isn't the place for extensive
personal revalation, but suffice it to say that I relate to the term on a
personal level, and far prefer the terms gay, lesbian, bi, etc. I
personally don't buy into the notion that by using the same terms people
use to insult you, you disarm them.
That said, as the word now seems to be in universal use by gay
organizations, I admit that I am outnumbered, and do my best not to take
offense at the term. But its not a term that comes naturally to me. It
still sounds insulting.
"J Rogow" <JRo...@SpammenotNewsguy.com>
7/21/2003 12:18:22 PM
X–No–archive: yes
Maladicta1 wrote:
I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
Maladicta1 wrote:
I wish they'd just call it "The
Fab 5" and not count on the stereotypes to be the draw. In a similar
vein, I enjoy "Will & Grace", but wouldn't enjoy it nearly so much if
they called it "2 queers, a drunk, and a Jewish Princess".
Who's tune in to watch it if it was called "The Fab 5?" Your other
example is not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable
being called Jewish princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage.
Even worse is being called a "JAP". example is not realistic: While some Jewish women are comfortable
being called Jewish princesses, it makes many of us seethe with rage.
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com>
7/22/2003 4:49:52 PM
g...@tucker–kellogg.com (Greg Tucker–Kellogg) wrote in
news:5f45c924.0307220806.64bda...@posting.google.com:
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns93BF84AD3E1ACElvisisal...@207.14.113.17>...
I agree: "What Not To Wear" is pretty great. The recent show where
they made over their first male victim/subject/student was wonderful.
Queer Eye works at a more frenetic pace (do they really do all of that
in a single day?) which is part of the fun, but the measured pace of
What No To Wear makes it work on TLC.
Actually, I was referring to the original WNTW, on BC. I'm not nearly as
big a fan of WNTW on TLC.
news:5f45c924.0307220806.64bda...@posting.google.com:
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns93BF84AD3E1ACElvisisal...@207.14.113.17>...
I agree: "What Not To Wear" is pretty great. The recent show where
they made over their first male victim/subject/student was wonderful.
Queer Eye works at a more frenetic pace (do they really do all of that
in a single day?) which is part of the fun, but the measured pace of
What No To Wear makes it work on TLC.
big a fan of WNTW on TLC.
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/23/2003 3:58:06 PM
Saw the show for the first time. Am underwhelmed, although certain parts were
amusing.
Still, if I were a member of the homosexual community, I'd be up in arms over
the fact that it takes FIVE people to do a job that, frankly, I could do
half–asleep.
And I am funnier.
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
amusing.
Still, if I were a member of the homosexual community, I'd be up in arms over
the fact that it takes FIVE people to do a job that, frankly, I could do
half–asleep.
And I am funnier.
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
maladic...@aol.com (Maladicta1)
7/23/2003 4:29:47 PM
Saw the show for the first time. Am underwhelmed, although certain parts were
amusing.
Still, if I were a member of the homosexual community, I'd be up in arms over
the fact that it takes FIVE people to do a job that, frankly, I could do
half–asleep.
And I am funnier.
–Joe in SoFla
And more modest. amusing.
Still, if I were a member of the homosexual community, I'd be up in arms over
the fact that it takes FIVE people to do a job that, frankly, I could do
half–asleep.
And I am funnier.
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
Richard Hunter <returntosen...@ddressunknown>
7/23/2003 10:27:56 PM
On 23 Jul 2003 19:53:58 GMT, while driving the porcelain bus,
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
wailed loudly and vomited the words:
david
––
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/derbarbier/
(ebay sales)
http://shops.half.com/derbarbier
stickneedlesinme at mindspring dot com
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
wailed loudly and vomited the words:
Mal noted:
I am! I am the single most modest human being in history. My modesty knows no
bounds. In fact, the Guinness (the book not the beer) keep insisting that my
name appear in their annual records book, under the heading, "most modest." I
just blushed.
In fact, just discussing my immense and astonishing levels of modesty, is
making me feel awkward. So I better stop now and let you all discover my
astounding modesty on your collective own.
ROFLI am! I am the single most modest human being in history. My modesty knows no
bounds. In fact, the Guinness (the book not the beer) keep insisting that my
name appear in their annual records book, under the heading, "most modest." I
just blushed.
In fact, just discussing my immense and astonishing levels of modesty, is
making me feel awkward. So I better stop now and let you all discover my
astounding modesty on your collective own.
david
––
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/derbarbier/
(ebay sales)
http://shops.half.com/derbarbier
stickneedlesinme at mindspring dot com
Richard Hunter <returntosen...@ddressunknown>
7/23/2003 10:28:55 PM
On 23 Jul 2003 16:47:37 GMT, while driving the porcelain bus,
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com> wailed loudly and vomited the words:
toaster when they sign you up.
david
––
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/derbarbier/
(ebay sales)
http://shops.half.com/derbarbier
stickneedlesinme at mindspring dot com
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com> wailed loudly and vomited the words:
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.) wrote in
news:20030723115806.14711.00000...@mb–m02.aol.com:
I'm sure a thousand gay hearts are atwitter at the mere thought of the
possibility, but you do know there's a rigorous entrance exam, right?
and then there's all those people that want to get the free news:20030723115806.14711.00000...@mb–m02.aol.com:
I'm sure a thousand gay hearts are atwitter at the mere thought of the
possibility, but you do know there's a rigorous entrance exam, right?
toaster when they sign you up.
david
––
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/derbarbier/
(ebay sales)
http://shops.half.com/derbarbier
stickneedlesinme at mindspring dot com
g...@tucker–kellogg.com (Greg Tucker–Kellogg)
7/22/2003 9:50:05 AM
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.) wrote in message news:<20030721134310.08420.00000...@mb–m20.aol.com>...
each other. Let me put it another way. Many of my gay male friends
have a strong sense of style. So do many of my straight friends. But
for many of my gay friends (and I'm not alone) their sense of style is
strongly bound to their sexual identity, much more directly than for
me or any other straight man I know. It's even stronger than that ––
it's an expression of themselves as gay men, freer perhaps than the
expression many straight men are willing to allow themselves.
Is it stereotyping to acknowledge, even celebrate, that expression?
Does doing so imply a stereotype that gay men are all queens, or that
all hairdressers are gay? I don't think so.
It seems to me that stereotypes start to dissolve when people get to
know individuals. In entertainment, whether the first impression of
those individuals plays into or opposes a preconceived stereotype is a
tough call. Should gays on TV never be portrayed as queens to avoid
reinforcing the ignorance of some homophobe? Did the Huxtables help
people see past their bigotry, or provide a convenient fantasy where
viewers could ignore the crushing poverty and urban blight plaguing so
much of urban black society? Perhaps both.
I don't think the Fab 5 are all birds of a feather (as it were), and
hope that their portrayal as individuals will develop. Give it time.
Only two episodes have aired –– there's a lot of room for growth.
Greg
Greg said:
[snip]
Let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that it does that (I'm not so sure
it does, but never mind). It STILL doesn't address the corrosive nature of
stereotypes. It would then just be "stereotypes, only better!"
I don't think it has to be that way, and I wonder if we're typing past it does, but never mind). It STILL doesn't address the corrosive nature of
stereotypes. It would then just be "stereotypes, only better!"
each other. Let me put it another way. Many of my gay male friends
have a strong sense of style. So do many of my straight friends. But
for many of my gay friends (and I'm not alone) their sense of style is
strongly bound to their sexual identity, much more directly than for
me or any other straight man I know. It's even stronger than that ––
it's an expression of themselves as gay men, freer perhaps than the
expression many straight men are willing to allow themselves.
Is it stereotyping to acknowledge, even celebrate, that expression?
Does doing so imply a stereotype that gay men are all queens, or that
all hairdressers are gay? I don't think so.
It seems to me that stereotypes start to dissolve when people get to
know individuals. In entertainment, whether the first impression of
those individuals plays into or opposes a preconceived stereotype is a
tough call. Should gays on TV never be portrayed as queens to avoid
reinforcing the ignorance of some homophobe? Did the Huxtables help
people see past their bigotry, or provide a convenient fantasy where
viewers could ignore the crushing poverty and urban blight plaguing so
much of urban black society? Perhaps both.
I don't think the Fab 5 are all birds of a feather (as it were), and
hope that their portrayal as individuals will develop. Give it time.
Only two episodes have aired –– there's a lot of room for growth.
Greg
Userb3 <use...@yahoo.com>
7/22/2003 6:45:16 PM
g...@tucker–kellogg.com (Greg Tucker–Kellogg) wrote in
news:5f45c924.0307220850.66cb2...@posting.google.com:
by presenting only queens, or suggesting that queenliness is next to
gayliness (I couldn't help myself).
class was making real strides, the civil rights movement was moving into
the mainstream, and America was ready to accept black doctors and
lawyers. I know the show received criticism from some activists who
claimed that the show was simply Leave it to Beaver in blackface. You
can't please everyone.
news:5f45c924.0307220850.66cb2...@posting.google.com:
Is it stereotyping to acknowledge, even celebrate, that expression?
Does doing so imply a stereotype that gay men are all queens, or that
all hairdressers are gay? I don't think so.
And that may be where we part company. I think it does imply that. Does doing so imply a stereotype that gay men are all queens, or that
all hairdressers are gay? I don't think so.
It seems to me that stereotypes start to dissolve when people get to
know individuals.
Agreed.know individuals.
In entertainment, whether the first impression of
those individuals plays into or opposes a preconceived stereotype is a
tough call. Should gays on TV never be portrayed as queens to avoid
reinforcing the ignorance of some homophobe?
Hardly. Queens exist. But we shouldn't exploit or endorse the stereotype those individuals plays into or opposes a preconceived stereotype is a
tough call. Should gays on TV never be portrayed as queens to avoid
reinforcing the ignorance of some homophobe?
by presenting only queens, or suggesting that queenliness is next to
gayliness (I couldn't help myself).
Did the Huxtables help
people see past their bigotry, or provide a convenient fantasy where
viewers could ignore the crushing poverty and urban blight plaguing so
much of urban black society? Perhaps both.
And perhaps the Huxtables came along at a time when the black middle people see past their bigotry, or provide a convenient fantasy where
viewers could ignore the crushing poverty and urban blight plaguing so
much of urban black society? Perhaps both.
class was making real strides, the civil rights movement was moving into
the mainstream, and America was ready to accept black doctors and
lawyers. I know the show received criticism from some activists who
claimed that the show was simply Leave it to Beaver in blackface. You
can't please everyone.
I don't think the Fab 5 are all birds of a feather (as it were), and
hope that their portrayal as individuals will develop. Give it time.
Only two episodes have aired –– there's a lot of room for growth.
Maybe that growth will include a better title. hope that their portrayal as individuals will develop. Give it time.
Only two episodes have aired –– there's a lot of room for growth.
g...@tucker–kellogg.com (Greg Tucker–Kellogg)
7/21/2003 7:37:20 AM
maladic...@aol.com (Maladicta1) wrote in message news:<20030718163055.14658.00000...@mb–m04.aol.com>...
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic
guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic
guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
Each of the stereotypes you cite has a particular historical context. They're
not interchangeable. The notion that Jews control international finance fed
the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive. As far as black guys teaching white guys the finer points of
basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent.
It's also spitting distance from the setup of White Men Can't Jump. not interchangeable. The notion that Jews control international finance fed
the hatred that led to the Holocaust. Thus any reference to it is wildly
offensive. As far as black guys teaching white guys the finer points of
basketball, this is unacceptable on a major network or ESPN but might work on
Comedy Central, where you expect the programming to be irreverent.
p...@midway.uchicago.edu (Trilby)
7/19/2003 4:41:03 PM
In article <20030718161620.21470.00000...@mb–m07.aol.com>,
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
Rolling eyes,
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
What if we had a show where Jewish guys taught Gentile guys how to invest? Or
black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
Shyeah, right. As if Hispanic guys know how to dance. black guys teaching white guys the fine points of basketball? Or Hispanic guys
teaching Anglo guys how to dance?
Rolling eyes,
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/19/2003 9:52:57 PM
Trilby cracked:
bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty
branch. 'Just the thing to quench my thirst,' quoth he. Drawing back a few
paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round
again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success.
"Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it
up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: 'I am sure they are
sour.' "
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
Shyeah, right. As if Hispanic guys know how to dance
"One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty
branch. 'Just the thing to quench my thirst,' quoth he. Drawing back a few
paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round
again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success.
"Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it
up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: 'I am sure they are
sour.' "
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
p...@midway.uchicago.edu (Trilby)
7/20/2003 2:47:45 AM
In article <20030719175257.24575.00000...@mb–m28.aol.com>,
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
Oh please. Everyone knows fat chicks are the best dancers.
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
Trilby cracked:
"One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard
[Sour grapes Aesop tale snipped] "One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard
Oh please. Everyone knows fat chicks are the best dancers.
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/20/2003 2:57:02 AM
Trilby makes it too easy by countering:
nightingale in addition to his other attractions; but Juno refused his request.
When he persisted, and pointed out that he was her favourite bird, she said:
'Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything.' "
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
Oh please. Everyone knows fat chicks are the best dancers.
"A Peacock once placed a petition before Hera desiring to have the voice of a nightingale in addition to his other attractions; but Juno refused his request.
When he persisted, and pointed out that he was her favourite bird, she said:
'Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything.' "
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
p...@midway.uchicago.edu (Trilby)
7/20/2003 2:58:52 AM
In article <20030719225702.13017.00000...@mb–m10.aol.com>,
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr. <jmgarci...@aol.complain> wrote:
Trilby makes it too easy by countering:
"A Peacock once placed a petition before Hera desiring to have the voice of a
nightingale in addition to his other attractions; but Juno refused his request.
When he persisted, and pointed out that he was her favourite bird, she said:
'Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything.' "
–Joe in SoFla
And I sing better than you, too. "A Peacock once placed a petition before Hera desiring to have the voice of a
nightingale in addition to his other attractions; but Juno refused his request.
When he persisted, and pointed out that he was her favourite bird, she said:
'Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything.' "
–Joe in SoFla
Priscilla
––
p...@midway.uchicago.edu "Here comes the most beautiful woman in puppetland!"
jmgarci...@aol.complain (Jpoijhgwedfg M. Gtgiokjhderfg Jr.)
7/20/2003 3:14:13 AM
Trilby finally gets one right:
Maybe ya know this li'l ditty:
"I'm superior, you're inferior.
I'm the big attraction, you're the small.
I'm the major one, you're the minor one,
I can beat you shootin', that's not all.
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do any thing better than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can be I can be greater.
sooner or later, I'm greater than you.
No, you're not.
Yes I am.
No you're not.
Yes I am.
No you're not.
Yes I am, yes I am.
I can shoot a partridge with a single cartridge.
I can get a sparrow with a bow and arrow.
I can do most anything.
Can you bake a pie?
No.
Neither can I.
Anything you can sing I can sing louder.
I can sing anything louder than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can buy, I can buy cheaper.
I can buy anything cheaper than you.
Fifty cents.
Forty cents.
Thirty cents.
Twenty cents.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can dig, I can dig deeper.
I can dig anything deeper than you.
Thirty feet.
Forty feet.
Fifty feet.
Sixty feet.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
I can drink my liquor faster than a flicker.
I can do it quicker and get even sicker.
I can live on bread and cheese.
And only on that?
Yes.
So can a rat.
Anything you can reach, I can go higher.
I can sing anything higher than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anyone you can lick, I can lick faster.
I can lick anyone faster than you.
With your fist?
With my feet.
With your feet?
With an axe.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Any school where you went, I could be master.
I could be master much faster than you.
Can you spell.
No I can't.
Can you add.
No I can't.
Can you teach.
Yes I can, yes I can.
I could be a racer, quite a steeple chaser.
I can jump a hurdle even with my girdle.
I can open any safe.
With out being caught?
Yes.
That's what I thought.
Any note you can hold I can hold longer.
I can hold any note longer than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can."
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.
And I sing better than you, too.
Higher too. Maybe ya know this li'l ditty:
"I'm superior, you're inferior.
I'm the big attraction, you're the small.
I'm the major one, you're the minor one,
I can beat you shootin', that's not all.
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do any thing better than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can be I can be greater.
sooner or later, I'm greater than you.
No, you're not.
Yes I am.
No you're not.
Yes I am.
No you're not.
Yes I am, yes I am.
I can shoot a partridge with a single cartridge.
I can get a sparrow with a bow and arrow.
I can do most anything.
Can you bake a pie?
No.
Neither can I.
Anything you can sing I can sing louder.
I can sing anything louder than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can buy, I can buy cheaper.
I can buy anything cheaper than you.
Fifty cents.
Forty cents.
Thirty cents.
Twenty cents.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anything you can dig, I can dig deeper.
I can dig anything deeper than you.
Thirty feet.
Forty feet.
Fifty feet.
Sixty feet.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
I can drink my liquor faster than a flicker.
I can do it quicker and get even sicker.
I can live on bread and cheese.
And only on that?
Yes.
So can a rat.
Anything you can reach, I can go higher.
I can sing anything higher than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Anyone you can lick, I can lick faster.
I can lick anyone faster than you.
With your fist?
With my feet.
With your feet?
With an axe.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can.
Any school where you went, I could be master.
I could be master much faster than you.
Can you spell.
No I can't.
Can you add.
No I can't.
Can you teach.
Yes I can, yes I can.
I could be a racer, quite a steeple chaser.
I can jump a hurdle even with my girdle.
I can open any safe.
With out being caught?
Yes.
That's what I thought.
Any note you can hold I can hold longer.
I can hold any note longer than you.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can.
No you can't.
Yes I can, yes I can."
–Joe in SoFla
I don't care, and you can't make me.