Home / alt.fashion.men / Monday, October 13, 2003
Me the Eccentric, and why people hate men's fashion
MeTheEccentric <junkm...@sunet.com.au>
10/13/2003 9:09:53 PM
Hi all. I'm slightly eccentric, and am interested in men's fashions from
maybe 1800? (certainly by Abraham Lincoln's time) to about 1930 (whenever
guys stopped wearing hats). For those who are wondering, I'm starting to
think that a hat will a) make me warmer, and b) help to de–accentuate
(decentuate?) the fact that I am fairly bald (currently aged between 25
and 30).
I've noticed that this kind of fashion doesn't seem to get discussed much
in this group, so if I should be posting somewhere else, please let me
know (I looked for alt.costume..., but didn't see anything). Anyway, I
have a fair–sized series of questions, and hopefully someone will be able
to answer some. Incidentally, please reply to the newsgroup, as the reply
address doesn't get read. Also, at the bottom, I have some comments on
last month's thread about "Why most people hate men's fashion".
––––– Questions about clothes: –––––
First, please note that, while I am looking at some "old–fashioned"
clothes, I hope to do some slightly different things with them. Think of
the Blues Brothers, updated, with more colour and a beard :).
1. Overcoats: Are overcoats that go with suits available any more? I live
in a moderate climate (Australia, obviously), and they don't appear to
sell them here, but I, being on the cold–blooded side ( :–1 ), feel the
need for extra warmth.
2. Gloves that go with suits; are they available?
http://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/ lists various kinds of
gloves in the "Dressing Ettiquette" section. When I google for gloves suit
–motorcycle –ski –snow, I still end up with all the wrong kinds of things.
3. Hats –– am I right in understanding that:
a) technically, a fedora and a homburg are the same, but the fedora tends
to
have the dents in the front
b) technically, a bowler and a derby are the same thing
4. Cravats. Where do I find info on things like cravats and jabots?
––––– Questions about dressing ettiquette:–––––
1. If white tie is even more formal than black tie, does that mean that if
someone specifies a black tie dinner, I can come in white tie? (Not that
I actually own the appropriate clothes for this, but anyway).
2. I read
about a do that specified white tie or national dress. Is national dress
always appropriate at white tie functions?
3. Are academic robes
appropriate at any time other than the obvious (ie. graduations).
––––– Comments on why people hate mens fashion: –––––
Andrew Nowicki:
not equal fancy (it may, but the two are independant). This was a general
shift in tastes from the "baroque" to the "classic". I'm not sure if I'm
using those words correctly, but here's what I mean:
Baroque: highly ornate, decorative, showy
Classic: plain, but obviously
well–made, crafted, tailored
This shift came in many things. For example, Baroque music (1600–1750)
has many moving parts, moving different directions all at the same time.
You could follow any one part with your ear, and it probably had at least
a reasonable melody. Classical (1750–1825) and later music had just the
one melody, and tended to use the other parts as supporting works, rather
than the main piece, just as today, a plain suit is a supporting work to
the tie (and other accessories), and the person. Marshall McLuhan, I
believe, commented on this (tastes of visual [classic] vs. non–visual
[baroque] people; the visual/classic people were the most literate in
terms of reading and books), as did Tolkien (moderns vs. ancients).
question. That femininity is a problem because many men still believe
that homosexuality is wrong (I agree, but I'm not a gay basher –– I think
that's the government's job; but I'm aware that's controversial around
here, so I'll say no more).
them appear feminine (see above for some of the disadvantages). I'm
trying to move myself out of that category at the moment, but until I've
moved myself into the "well–dressed" category, I would still feel
uncomfortable about discussing such things with most of the guys I know.
Ruddell:
(There's also a difference between "hate" and "avoid", which I implied for
Andrew above). The media doesn't hate men's fashion because the fashion
companies can see a huge, untapped fasion market out there, composed
entirely of men. That's why they're interested in that group mentioned
some time ago called the "metrosexuals". They want guys to become like
what one of my female friends calls "wog boys". This, from her, is not an
insult, because she is always talking about how nicely they dress compared
to "Australian men". The point is, they want more "European" fashions for
men, rather than "American" (see Tolkien's comments on the way Americans
dress for more information on this distinction). The reasons for this
are:
a) European fashions have more markup
b) American men already own clothes in the American fashions, but none in
the European, so they can sell them to them
c) The women and men in the fashion industry generally dress in European
styles themselves, and would like to have more people around that dress
that way (particularly those with no strongly–attached partner yet).
Probably other reasons too, but that'll do for now.
:)
maybe 1800? (certainly by Abraham Lincoln's time) to about 1930 (whenever
guys stopped wearing hats). For those who are wondering, I'm starting to
think that a hat will a) make me warmer, and b) help to de–accentuate
(decentuate?) the fact that I am fairly bald (currently aged between 25
and 30).
I've noticed that this kind of fashion doesn't seem to get discussed much
in this group, so if I should be posting somewhere else, please let me
know (I looked for alt.costume..., but didn't see anything). Anyway, I
have a fair–sized series of questions, and hopefully someone will be able
to answer some. Incidentally, please reply to the newsgroup, as the reply
address doesn't get read. Also, at the bottom, I have some comments on
last month's thread about "Why most people hate men's fashion".
––––– Questions about clothes: –––––
First, please note that, while I am looking at some "old–fashioned"
clothes, I hope to do some slightly different things with them. Think of
the Blues Brothers, updated, with more colour and a beard :).
1. Overcoats: Are overcoats that go with suits available any more? I live
in a moderate climate (Australia, obviously), and they don't appear to
sell them here, but I, being on the cold–blooded side ( :–1 ), feel the
need for extra warmth.
2. Gloves that go with suits; are they available?
http://www.costumegallery.com/1910/Men/Suits/ lists various kinds of
gloves in the "Dressing Ettiquette" section. When I google for gloves suit
–motorcycle –ski –snow, I still end up with all the wrong kinds of things.
3. Hats –– am I right in understanding that:
a) technically, a fedora and a homburg are the same, but the fedora tends
to
have the dents in the front
b) technically, a bowler and a derby are the same thing
4. Cravats. Where do I find info on things like cravats and jabots?
––––– Questions about dressing ettiquette:–––––
1. If white tie is even more formal than black tie, does that mean that if
someone specifies a black tie dinner, I can come in white tie? (Not that
I actually own the appropriate clothes for this, but anyway).
2. I read
about a do that specified white tie or national dress. Is national dress
always appropriate at white tie functions?
3. Are academic robes
appropriate at any time other than the obvious (ie. graduations).
––––– Comments on why people hate mens fashion: –––––
Andrew Nowicki:
Before the industrial era men and women had equal right to wear
fashionable clothes. Although some rulers and clergymen restricted the
right to wear fancy clothes to the elite, men's fashion was pretty fancy
until the industrialized Europeans adopted drab military uniforms and
12–hour workday.
Men still have the right to wear fashionable clothes. Fashionable does fashionable clothes. Although some rulers and clergymen restricted the
right to wear fancy clothes to the elite, men's fashion was pretty fancy
until the industrialized Europeans adopted drab military uniforms and
12–hour workday.
not equal fancy (it may, but the two are independant). This was a general
shift in tastes from the "baroque" to the "classic". I'm not sure if I'm
using those words correctly, but here's what I mean:
Baroque: highly ornate, decorative, showy
Classic: plain, but obviously
well–made, crafted, tailored
This shift came in many things. For example, Baroque music (1600–1750)
has many moving parts, moving different directions all at the same time.
You could follow any one part with your ear, and it probably had at least
a reasonable melody. Classical (1750–1825) and later music had just the
one melody, and tended to use the other parts as supporting works, rather
than the main piece, just as today, a plain suit is a supporting work to
the tie (and other accessories), and the person. Marshall McLuhan, I
believe, commented on this (tastes of visual [classic] vs. non–visual
[baroque] people; the visual/classic people were the most literate in
terms of reading and books), as did Tolkien (moderns vs. ancients).
Any man who dares to wear fancy clothes, high heel shoes, makeup, or
jewelry, risks insults and physical assaults.
It's not the clothes –– it's the perceived femininity of the male in jewelry, risks insults and physical assaults.
question. That femininity is a problem because many men still believe
that homosexuality is wrong (I agree, but I'm not a gay basher –– I think
that's the government's job; but I'm aware that's controversial around
here, so I'll say no more).
I have no idea why most people hate men's fashion with such intensity.
Do you have any explanation?
Many men are also afraid to show interest in fashion because that makes Do you have any explanation?
them appear feminine (see above for some of the disadvantages). I'm
trying to move myself out of that category at the moment, but until I've
moved myself into the "well–dressed" category, I would still feel
uncomfortable about discussing such things with most of the guys I know.
Ruddell:
Where did you get the idea that most people hate men's fashion? It
simply isn't true...
I think there's a difference between "the media" and "most people". simply isn't true...
(There's also a difference between "hate" and "avoid", which I implied for
Andrew above). The media doesn't hate men's fashion because the fashion
companies can see a huge, untapped fasion market out there, composed
entirely of men. That's why they're interested in that group mentioned
some time ago called the "metrosexuals". They want guys to become like
what one of my female friends calls "wog boys". This, from her, is not an
insult, because she is always talking about how nicely they dress compared
to "Australian men". The point is, they want more "European" fashions for
men, rather than "American" (see Tolkien's comments on the way Americans
dress for more information on this distinction). The reasons for this
are:
a) European fashions have more markup
b) American men already own clothes in the American fashions, but none in
the European, so they can sell them to them
c) The women and men in the fashion industry generally dress in European
styles themselves, and would like to have more people around that dress
that way (particularly those with no strongly–attached partner yet).
Probably other reasons too, but that'll do for now.
:)